Mastering NEC4 Compensation Events: Time Assessments Explained

We unpack how to assess the time element of NEC compensation events, why the dividing date matters, and how to preserve terminal float. We share a three-step method to progress, model impact, and produce clear quotations without relying on end‑of‑project prolongation claims.

• defining compensation events and the rights to change dates and prices
• why quotations must show alterations to the accepted programme
• prospective versus retrospective assessment tied to the dividing date
• preserving terminal float and extending time only one way
• three-step method: progress, reschedule, impact the CE
• showing time risk allowance and principal resources
• using assumptions when uncertainty is too high
• pitfalls: old programmes, hidden float, missing planned key date conditions
• sequencing multiple CEs and aligning on method
• resources to deepen practice and prepare for the prices session

Join us on 1 December at 16:30 for Assessing Compensation Events Part Two: Prices

View the webinar: https://www.gatherinsights.com/en/webinars
Join the LinkedIn Group: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/2893228/

Transcript

Welcome And Speakers

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hello and good afternoon, evening, depending on where you are. I'm I'm in Amsterdam today. Welcome to this fourth episode of our NEC. Sorry, third episode of I'm getting ahead of myself, third episode of our NEC uh webinar series. This time we're going to look at compensation events and we're going to do this in two parts. It's such a big topic. We're going to look at uh how we assess them in two parts. So the first part is going to look at uh time and that sort of complex piece around time. And the second part we'll look at prices, which will be uh next month, and we'll advertise uh the date and time of that uh towards the end of the session. So uh welcome. My name's Ben Walker. I'm a director at uh at Gather, an online record keeping system, and I'm joined by Glenn Heidt from GMH Planning, NEC trainer, and David Allen as well from Seeker Southern. So I'm gonna hand over to David and we'll we'll kick things off. David, do you want to say a few words about uh Seeker and what it's all about?

Series Context And Today’s Focus On Time

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hopefully we've got a slide deck to appear as well, Ben. Hopefully, if someone pushes the right button.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Yeah, I was just thinking that. We do indeed. Well, you're looking for that. Yeah, thank you very much. I'm David Allen. You've probably already recognized me if you've been to the first two webinars. And yes, there have only been two webinars that we've done so far, but uh thank you, Ben. This is uh secret, just one part of a or secret, just one part of a member-led trade association, and we represent organizations delivering and maintaining civil engineering infrastructure across the mainland UK. I'm really looking forward to this third NEC webinar. Did you get that, Ben? Third webinar? Industries, but I hope that Glenn and Ben will shed more light on some of the issues that our Seeker members and the wider industry have to address in the operational world. Getting greater clarity and consistency around the assessment process will increase the industry getting greater certainty in the outcomes. And as you will no doubt already have heard, the importance of today's topic has led it to being the assessing compensation events part one, because there will definitely need to be more to follow. And if you tune in in December, then you will hear a bit more. So I'm now going to hand you over to Glenn from GMH Planning and look forward to the rest of the event.

What A Compensation Event Really Is

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Thanks, David. Thanks, Ben. So yeah, warm welcome back for another session. And yeah, we're looking today at assessing compensation events. So we've split this into two. So we're focusing on the time element today, and then in four weeks' time in December, we're gonna be back. You'll have just opened your third day on your advent calendar. Can you uh can you believe that? By the way, we're doing NEC advent calendar, more about that to uh to come later. So December we'll talk about the cost element, but here this evening we're gonna talk about the time element, as in first of all, reminding what is a compensation event. So a quick recap as to what these are and the quotation proposing needs to include the proposal to any delay to completion date. So we need to consider the impact of time with each and every compensation. We'll say this a few times this evening. There's no such thing as a separate prolongation claim. So we need to consider time within each compensation quotation. So we'll look at this relationship between the delay and the defined cost, as in how do we price this time element. We'll also talk about this very important thing called the dividing date. So it's a newly named thing in NEC4. The principle was there in NEC3, but it's more definitive in NEC4. So we'll look at the dividing date and look at some examples as to when it would come about and its significance. And occasionally it could be grey, but in most cases it would be relatively uh black and white. We'll look at taking into account of the progress and a delay caused, already caused, and then also this sort of four-step approach, four-step approach and the delay assessment methodology. So we'll look at different ways maybe that this could be considered, but obviously we need the correct contractual process. And NET4 has cleaned up this slightly compared to previous editions of the contract. And then common problems and solutions as ever, and then hopefully we'll have a good bit of time today for your QA and we'll pick up on any questions that you've got. And then also share with you some more useful resources you've got available through the likes of GMH Planning, Seeker, and Gather. So extra source information we've got available. Ben, how are we going to fit that into 40 minutes?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

We'll do our best.

Quotations And Alterations To Programme

SPEAKER_02 4:37

So the first thing, just to recap, we so the three webinars we've done already, we looked at early warnings and a positive approach to those. We looked at a second episode, it was all about notifying compensation events and instructing quotations. And then this episode, we're we're we're looking at uh compensation events part one, because as Glenn and David already said, it's quite a quite a big topic this and deserves a little bit of extra time. So just given we're still in this compensation world, we we look forward to doing all sorts of other webinars in the future. But just to remind ourselves what a compensation actually is. And it's it's an event that if it's one of the ones listed in the contract and a few different places where they are listed, if it isn't, if it's one of those events stated in the contract, then the contractor, if that event's occurred through no fault of their own, is entitled to change the prices, the completion date, and any key dates. And it's that last bit that changes to completion date and key dates that in particular we're going to be looking at today. And it's worth remembering as well that 636 actually talks about the rights of both the parties. So it's not just uh a contractor's right, of course, because some certain compensation events uh might change the prices down as well as up, might reduce them as well as increase them. However, importantly, time is only ordered in the one direction. So we only see extensions of time.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Two major differences with uh I'm hearing a little bit of feedback, so I don't know if that's my end.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Okay, so two major differences with NEC compared to many standard form contracts. Uh first one impact on the prices, completion date, and key dates is assessed together, uh, prospectively where possible, and without revisiting. So once we've implemented the events, we we don't go back and undo it. Only an adjudicator has that power to go and undo that commercial finality, which NEC calls implementation, which is quite an important point. And an assessment is based on the impact upon defined cost and the resulting fee, and this preserves that tender imposition. So we'll certainly look at that second part in the next episode on the 1st of December, then. Uh, so that's just a quick overview. Uh Glenn, if you just sort of orientate us on the process next, I think. So roughly where we are.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yeah, so in the last webinar, we looked at the sort of first two boxes. So we looked to the awareness as to what is a compensation in the first place and where do they appear. So the majority place is obviously clause 60.1. So we've got 21 reasons in NET four, ETC contract as to what is a compensation then, and then there's some littered in the primary options, the main options. So option B and D, there's some extra compensation fence to do with bill of quantity changes. And then also in some of the secondary options, like X2, for example, changes in the law, those would be additional compensation events. And even in Data Part One, there's space for additional compensation events, which is then recovered under 60.121. So we look to the awareness and then the notification phase. So the fact that either party should be notifying, and we kind of got to the stage where we were then putting in the uh putting in the quotation. And that's kind of where we pick up on this afternoon. So we're now going to focus on the assessment phase, and then over the sort of two sessions, we'll get to implementation as well, the conclusion of the process. But this afternoon, we're focusing on the assessment phase, and in particular, from a program perspective today, and on the next webinar, we'll pick up on the cost element of the assessment of the compensation.

No Global Prolongation Claims

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Yeah, and it's true to say that I think in this episode we're going to focus on the quotation route through to implementation. So there is another option, and it's project manager's assessment that that can play out under certain scenarios and conditions. But we're really looking at how those rules of assessment under clause 63 apply under a clause 62 quotation. Okay, and uh the uh the first thing perhaps to note is that uh just to touch on this point as well before we get into the sort of detail of of how to approach those assessments, clause 62, which deals with with quotations, 62.2 specifically requires that if the program for remaining work is altered by the compensation event. So if your if your change or your or event, whatever that event might be, changes the remaining work, then the contractor includes alterations to the accepted program in the quotation. So note the word alteration there. It doesn't require you to put an entirely new program for acceptance in with your quotation, it is just the alterations. And actually that kind of makes sense, doesn't it? Because it's not so much what we now think the program is, it's how it's changed, how it's been impacted. So if if we keep thinking along those lines, it it sort of starts to become clear that we need to see a sort of before and after impact assessment. And that's I think the direction that we we would go in, and certainly where uh the rest of this webinar sort of looks at and explores. I think sometimes it it can be quite a big dramatic effect, then you know it might be pragmatic to look at an entire program, but nonetheless, you've still got to demonstrate how it's changed. And those alterations need to demonstrate for from a time point of view the assessed impact of the event upon planned completion, meeting a condition a can a condition stated for a key date. And then if you've got X5, then obviously planned sectional completions as well. And uh quite often, I think Glenn and I were chatting about this recently. I think we we see people putting planned completion on a program. So you s you people remember to do that. So you you have this pairing between the completion date, which is the contractual deadline, the completion date, and then you have plans with a small p because it's literal, planned completion, which is the reality, and that those two are paired. But quite often we don't see on programs, we see key dates, but we don't see that planned date for meeting the condition for a key date. And you do need to put both the contractual deadline and when you're planning to meet that reality. Without that, this whole piece becomes sort of impossible to do. So really important to show both those sides of the coin on your programs.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, I'd add to that on that last slide, Ben, I'll just add the fact that, yeah, that's in training, that's so common conceptional misconception, just people don't realize that you need a planned key date milestone for each key date. Often they realise they need a planned sexual milestone, but then don't think that they need a planned key date milestone. Um, and it's just not not recognized. Once we show them and explain why that would be the case, they're like, yeah, actually, I don't know why we haven't done it now, sort of on reflection. So that is commonly uh commonist. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

And if you if you go right back to 63.6 at the start of the session today, you know, your rights are to change the key dates. And as we'll see in a moment, the only way those dates change is if you can if is if there has been an impact on that planned date for meeting the conditions. So really important, yeah, that we show both.

Delay, Defined Cost And Risk Allowances

SPEAKER_00 11:52

And also on that last slide, just to say that you know, Ben's talked about the it's not a revised program issued for acceptance. And I always describe this as a filtered program. So when you're plugging in a compensation event, for the planners amongst you, if you do a mini baseline on the program before you then feed in the compensation event, you can then, when you reschedule it, after you've assessed the impact of the CE, all you need to do is run a filter of what's changed since that last baseline. And in effect, that is your mini program that you're going to give with that quotation. Then what it said, it's not you're not issuing that program for acceptance, it's to help the quotation be understood, is the purpose of that program. So we're not issuing it for acceptance. And with that, follow straight on is that the whole key concept in terms of time is there is no separate prolongation claim under NEC contracts. All too often with other forms of contracts, you get towards the end of a project, and then you might pick up on individual delays and you've claimed for them along the way, but then you get to the end and it's like, right, we're 12 weeks late, and then you might be tempted to put in, because there's no other way of doing it, a sort of global prolongation extension of time claim is what you might have called it at that point in time. But there's no such approach that facilitates this within an EC. So if you are running 12 weeks late, you need to know exactly which month along the way those delays occurred in and which compensation event that was down to, assuming it was. Because if it wasn't down to a compensation event, then you've got nothing to claim. But if you can pinpoint that 12-week delay to individual compensation events along the way, then that's what you need to track. And if there isn't a full entitlement with compensation events, some of that 12 weeks you might be culpable for, but the bit you're not, you need to track and be able to claim for that along the way progressively. Okay. So there's no global prolongation claim. Each time you issue a program for acceptance, if you have a delay in plan completion, you need to know why you are running late that period. And hopefully you can attribute it due to well, say hopefully from a chapter's point of view at least, you can attribute it to a compensation event. Less happy for the client, obviously, but if you can attribute it to a CE that period, then you will need to include within a compensation event quotation the time element and you need to price that as well. So whenever we're assessing a compensation event, the accepted program is the starting point for the delay assessment. You are allowed to include risk allowances within the forecast that are risks that would be the contractor's risk and have a reasonable, significant chance of occurring. No separate or identified rate for prelims in inverted commerce there. So you don't have a prelim rate tied into the contract. You don't say every week it's going to be 10 grand. Prelims will be different for different parts of the life cycle of the project. If you're running late at the very end by a week and there's only a couple of people knocking around and one welfare cabin left, your prelims are very minimal. If you're delayed in the middle of the project, when you've got maximum cabins, maximum people, your prelim rate will be significantly or expensive. Be able to demonstrate within an individual compensation quotation what the prelim type rate is within that quote. The delay may have an impact on the components of cost. So again, when we're building up the compensation quote in terms of scheduled cost components, we need to see and value the time element of each of those elements in terms of people, equipment, subcontractors, and so on. So that's some of the key elements in terms of the relationship between the delay and the defined cost assessment.

The Dividing Date Explained

SPEAKER_02 15:33

They really are integrated, aren't they, Glenn? And you know, if you're if if any of you out there are still writing these letters along the lines of, here are our so if you if you if you basically lay out your quotation to say, here are our direct costs that we can tell you about now, we will follow up with indirect costs as we know them. That that that is definitely a flawed approach and not something that NEC supports. You really have to look at the whole effects. And if you wanted to look at also other things like assumptions, we cover them in quite a bit of detail in episode two. So uh remember as well in the full ECC main contract, you can't make assumptions as a contractor. You're reliant on your project manager making those where the assessment is too uncertain to forecast reasonably. Okay, good stuff. So, yeah, it leaves me to talk a little bit about the dividing date. So uh the dividing date is now something that's in NEC4, so it wasn't in NEC3, it's a new kind of concept or an old concept, but now explicitly explained in NEC4. It's not a defined term, but it does give us this concept that separates actual work done from forecast work not done. So, anyone familiar with compensation assessment, you'll have seen this clause. It's in NEC4, clause 63.1, and it talks about actual work done, but forecast work not done. And and this is the same in NEC3, it's just that in NEC4, we're a little bit more specific, and we introduce I the dividing date. And the lower part of this clause explains that the dividing date is this sort of concept that separates out what's being done from what hasn't been done yet. This is really important because it it ensures that the the point at which uh the point in time that separates what's being done from what hasn't yet been done doesn't move. So it's not a moving feast. And it does a couple of other things as well, which are quite important. That particular date is uh set by a specific communication, the nature of which varies depending on the type of conversation event. So I'll say that again. Depending on the type of conversation that we have, this will inform us as to what communication we should be looking at, the date of which communication we should be looking at to establish what that dividing date is, what the what the date is that separated the work not done from the work already done. And on the next slide, we're gonna have a little look at some examples of that. So really important, it it was kind of uh uh intended to be the case in NEC3, but not very explicit. So hopefully this concept, as we explore the significance of it a little bit further, gives the contractor some some cut some sort of confidence that this isn't gonna be a moving feast. In particular, when we look at the significance of it with regard to quotations, we'll unpack why. So more on that in a moment. Glenn, do you want to give us that idea of this is perhaps a useful chart to understand that bit I talked about, the compensation event type will set the communication that tells you when the dividing date was.

Forecast Versus Actuals By Event Type

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah, I think this I think this slide does it quite nicely. So we've got the dividing date, and if you look on the left, we've got assessments potentially retrospective, and to the right, assessment is prospect prospective, as in it's gonna be a forecast. Let's go to the right-hand slide first of all. And this is something people struggle with. Why are we gonna do forecast and isn't it all about actuals? And if the the quote's not been agreed, don't be revert to actuals. As Ben's already highlighted, NET4 is absolutely clear. NET3 was generally clear, but now clearer in NET4 as to what the switch point is between forecast and actual. And it does depend on the type of event and the communication that has been presented with it. So well, the ones on the right hand side will only ever be based on forecast. Because if we take the first one, the project manager gives an instruction changing the scope. Well, why would a contractor ever proceed it's something changing the scope without an instruction? Now I'm tempted to say please don't answer that, because if anyone thinks they should, they shouldn't. And you shouldn't be doing something without an instruction to do something different, we shouldn't be doing it. And sometimes cachators are helpful too helpful and guilty of trying to be doing too much by thinking, well, in a spirit mutual trust of operation, that'll help the client, so we should do it. You're working at risk that you don't need to do, and if it's really urgent, then really quickly they should put it in writing, is my always response to that. So if the project manager is given instruction change in the scope, the contractor won't do anything without that instruction. So the switch point, this dividing date, is the date of the instruction. So this can only ever be based on forecast. And the same for everything else in that list. Number four, these aren't all of them, by the way. This is just a sample. So number four, the project manager gives an instruction to stop work. You wouldn't have stopped without that instruction. So now it is a forecast. What would have been reasonable to have allowed appoint project manager or supervisor changes a decision? Number eight, supervisor instructs to research for defect, none was found, or the project manager certifies takeover before completion date. So the date when the project manager or supervisor, there's only one instruction the supervisor ever gives, and that is an instruction to uncover works if they believe a defect exists. So the instruction is the dividing date, and those will only ever be based on forecast. If we now switch to the left-hand side, these are ones that potentially will, depending on how quick they're notified, because these will all be notified as compensation events, there may well be some actual elements that are done before it's notified. Now, there is a time bar to notify a compensation event within eight weeks of becoming aware, otherwise, they could be time barred. I cannot think of any reason why it'd be in the chat of interest to wait seven weeks before they're notified, thinking we want to get this agreed at actual cost, because it's fraught with problems. And also, if you wait seven weeks to notify, how long is it going to take to agree the quote? And in all that time, you don't know your liability. So it shouldn't be in anyone's ploy. And Ben, you can top this off, and maybe I've missed something. I can't think of any reason why a contractor would want to delay that notification. But some people think it might be in their interest somehow. So these ones, if you don't get access, the contractor is obliged to notify. Otherwise, they will be time barred. And if they don't notify for a period of time, then potentially there will be an element of actual cost that will have been experienced. Same for the client doesn't provide something, by the day, churn on the accepted program or number 12, the contractor encounters physical conditions, they would have had such a small chance of occurring, would have been unreasonable for them to have allowed for it. So again, I always say contractors as soon as you've hit unforeseen ground, notify as soon as you can, because if they say no, it's not, you've just wasted seven weeks thinking you're going to get paid for this, and they're saying no, that was in the site formation, you're under no illusions. So that's a risk. In theory, you shouldn't have done anything different, but you thought you were going to claim for this. And if you notify, you'll get a response within a week as to whether or not they agree it is a compensation. And probably the one that's most common that will be based on actual is weather. Because for it to exceed a one in 10 year weather event, it'll be several weeks after the end of the calendar month before you get your MetOffice data or wherever you get the weather data. So this is one of the more common ones that will be more likely to be an element of it will be actuals. You will have actual time and cost elements to consider for weather. Would you agree there, Ben? There's no reason, is there, why a contractor should want to wait seven and a half weeks to notify a CE, or if I have I missed something?

Preserving Float And Extending Time

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Well, I I don't know. I think perhaps there's a there is a there is perhaps one example where my my understanding of of contractors is the first priority is to not lose any money. And I guess if you were to not notify straight away, so if you were to hold your notification and maybe use a bit of that eight weeks, then the the dividing date is the notification of the event. So you would bank more actuals rather than rather than relying on forecasted risk allowance, I s I s I guess. But that itself is, you know, it certainly if it's option A or B, the cash flow is also important. And if it is potentially a bit risky, then you know, perhaps we should be paid that risk allowance because that's when we're on the hook for it, whether or not it it happens. And that's a debate we have a fair bit, and actually, probably probably a point better made in the next slide. But yeah, I think I agree with you, Glenn, on 13 on the weather, that even if you notified immediately, you're still likely to have experienced some effects, and therefore we can't help but recognise a certain amount of the assessment is going to be retrospective. And that's really the nature of this webinar today, is to look at how we approach those those different parts because it might be a combination of partly retrospective and partly prospective. So we might be looking backwards from the dividing date into the past to take account of those effects we've already felt, and stood on the dividing date looking forwards, even if the admin's not prompt and we're a little bit further down the road, we're still able to bring ourselves back to that dividing date and look that way and therefore protect our our risk allowances. And that's really the big significance of clause 63.5, as I understand it, is it's it's just super explicit about the point at which we make the assessment is not a moving feast. So let me give you an example of perhaps some mischief that could occur without the dividing date. Imagine you're a contractor in in good faith putting your quotation together, and it's for something that's gonna happen in the next few days, perhaps, and you are on the dividing date, because it's an instruction changing the scope. So the dividing date is the date of that instruction, and maybe that's today, and you're being prompt with your quotation, and you're saying to yourself, okay, this work's gonna take a couple of weeks, and it's gonna, it's in the winter, it's outside. We've got some fairly weather-sensitive activities, so we're gonna put maybe four days risk allowance onto that. The project manager in theory has three weeks to accept your quotation. So if you're prompt at putting your quotation in, maybe you're on an option A and you need to get that cash flow in and get things processed as quick as possible. There was a scenario in some interpretations of NEC3 where the project manager might just sit on that quotation. And if you ended up needing seven extra days, then they would accept the quote. And if if it turned out you didn't need any day's risk allowance, then they would instruct a revised quote based on actuals. And one interpretation could have been that you perhaps could could do that. NEC4 makes this super clear, and to Glenn's point, anything on that right-hand side is really saying, no, this is this is always prospective, which preserves your entitlement to those risk allowances. And I very much hope that the client teams are listening to this as well. And you know, I've heard in face-to-face training certain sort of pushback on that. Well, Ben, if we've got the actuals, why can't we just apply those? But we have to remember the whole point of NEC in this approach is that we are trying to get certainty sooner and deal with change as it happens in favor of a big prolongation thing, big global delay and disruption claim at the end of the job. They have to have very different approaches. And one of those requirements to gain those benefits is to do this prospective assessment wherever possible and and in a timely manner. And so we to keep the kind of fairness and appropriateness of that, we have to have the ability to include risk allowances for cost and time where appropriate, as if we were doing a mini tender. And uh, you know, it's still still got a bit of pushback. I don't know if you've ever heard this, Glenn, but uh my my favorite sort of response to this is well, you know, you can't phone your home insurers up after a after a successful year and ask for your prelim uh ask for your um bringing back because your house didn't burn down. You know, it it at the time that's what we're on the hook for as contractors, and and that's the bit we're entitled to. And the whole point is to give that certainty, move on, and then we deal with tomorrow's compensation events tomorrow rather than you know having that kind of less than satisfactory global delay and disruption claim where there's so much uncertainty. And and I think that's one of the big differences with NEC Glen. Is that have I phrased that right?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah, yeah, and obviously time risk allowances is a very NEC phrase. No other contracts have got this like specific concept or this specific label anyway. But it's always interesting, isn't it? Those same clients who retrospectively decide that actually those time risk allowances are too much, we can now see you didn't need that time, so therefore we want to take that out. Those same people are very quick to ignore the fact that another scenario there wasn't enough risk included and they there was more risk needed than they could track the price for. And of course, on that one, they say no, the quote's fine on that one. And they don't so two days of risk, there was only one day needed, they want to take one. But if there's four days of risk and they'd have already priced two, then they they're happy to accept the quote. So I think you've used the word already tonight. Consistency is what NEC is trying to achieve. And occasionally, in a given scenario, the rule will go against you, whichever party you are, but that same rule will then protect you in a very other situation that happens slightly differently. So the rules are consistent. What does vary is the order, the timing, and those are the things that change.

Progress-Then-Impact Three-Step Method

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah, and don't forget as well, really good points, Glenn, and and and just something that jumps into my head that I know you're a massive fan of, which is assumptions. So the whole, if your time risk allowance is unpalatable and perhaps out of proportion to the whole, to the sort of out of out of relative proportion to the overall compensation event, then have a discussion. About stating an assumption. Because that is a post-contract way of fine-tuning that risk allocation, one of the only ones, I think, which allows you to be a bit sensible around things that are so uncertain. And that's not a, I think we covered this in the last webinar. It's not kind of something that the project manager is gracious to provide you. This is an obligation upon them where it is, you know, not possible to forecast reasonably. I forget the exact words, but something to that effect. The other thing this clause tells us, which is very important and new to NEC4, is which accepted program to use. Because NEC3 and NEC4 are very clear. There's only one accepted program, and the the most current program accepted supersedes the previous one. But the way in which clause 63.5 is worded is careful to specifically bring into play the accepted program current at the dividing date. Now this gives us a much more contemporaneous program at the time of the event. If in in an unfortunate circumstance of the admin not happening promptly, we we don't keep resetting the program that's used, which was another problem that we saw in NEC3. So that this has solved that problem as well. And I think that that bit of mischief is is far better now. And so you've you've got a static date with which the assessment of past events and future events, and a static program with which to do that, which is I think much more satisfactory. I think we've covered the other the other bits and I think we're ready, perhaps then, for the next slide. But the one important point to just say, I guess, on this this 3.5, there's no uh there's no kind of uh defined term for contractors float or terminal float. Everything about the preservation of that float between when I plan to finish and when I have got to finish, plan to complete and got to complete. But that that bit of float, everything said about that is quite elegantly said in this simple sentence. And it's really important to read this and understand it. And it's that a delay to the completion date is assessed as the length of time that planned completion is later than planned completion on the accepted program current at the dividing date. So this is the one that tells us that we can only extend a completion date. We can't bring it back in time. Uh, and it also tells us that that bit of float, that as programmers schedule as you might call terminal float, that bit of float is preserved and it is the contractus, if you like, to maintain.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Glenn, anything further to add on that one?

SPEAKER_00 32:45

No, other, yeah, you described it very well. So just that gap between plan completion and completion date, that's what the contract calls it, the gap between the two. The guidance notes actually refer to it as terminal float. Slightly strangely, the contract doesn't call it that. So we all use that term, terminal float. I even use it in training, but uh technically it is the gap between plan completion and completion date. And yeah, it's maintained, and the gap is what's commonly known as uh as terminal float.

unknown 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Absolutely. You've got to talk about this one since I think you've you've got to take some credit for it changing.

Modelling Techniques And Assumptions

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Well, yeah, I mean it was interesting. So 2013, when it was mid-NEC3, that era, I didn't feel it was clear enough in NEC3 exactly what programme you well, it was clear what program you used to assess compensation events. What was less clear is if you take into account progress and other compensation events that have happened since the last accepted program, especially when the last accepted program might have been two, three, four months ago, it could have been it could have been that long. So in that article, bottom right, assessing compensation events, which program do you use? Even that article, which was an NEC, you're a good newsletter article, you can download it if you want to. Even in that article, I did prove with existing NET3 wording that you did have to take into account progress and other compensation events since the last accepted program. But it was very convoluted and you had to read a lot of clause in conjunction with each other to get there. And at the end of the article, I said, but look, I've just written 300 words on that and it's not straightforward. Come on, NEC4, um, solve the problem. Unfortunately, 2017 NET4 didn't solve the problem. NEC4 was great, it did lots of good stuff, but this particular issue it didn't solve. I had to write a new article saying you've not solved the problem and you've caused a bigger issue. And they weren't very happy with this being published the day after the contracts were launched. But we're still friends and it did prompt them to say, you've got a point. So within four months, which was great from NEC, they wrote first of all a mini guidance note. It was called ETC practice note number one, saying that when you're assessing compensation events, you do take into account progress and other compensation events since the last accepted program prior to the dividing date. And now in the 2019 version of NEC4, they've added these words in because, as we've already said, guidance nodes isn't part of the contract, so they need to be in the contract. So the 2019 version of NEC4 does include these two important lines. The first one says any delay caused with a compensation event already in the accepted program. So basically that will be if last month you were showing you're running a week late, you didn't know why. If you can now attribute that to weather, because you've now got the weather data and now you know that's why you're running late, you can still claim for that delay as a compensation event. And then the second one, which is the one we're going to go and look on the rest of this session, is events. Events which have happened between the accepted program and the dividing date. So that will be progress and other compensation events which have happened since the last accepted program and the dividing date. As we've highlighted, there may be a need for some mix of retrospective and prospective assessments depending on when it was identified, the dividing date. And there is something I need to talk about, the SCL protocol. You might have heard of this. There's several methodologies where the SCL Society construction and law came up with a number of different ways that delays can be assessed. We need to be very careful with this document, because when it was written, it didn't specifically deal with NEC. It's talking about general methodologies across various forms of contracts. But NEC has very specific rules. Okay, so the SEO protocol doesn't take into account these new words in NEC4, for example. So I don't think you have a choice in how you assess things. I think NEC4 now makes this very clear, and we're going to look at this in the rest of this afternoon session.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yeah, I I think so, Glenn, I think you're spot on there. And I I put it in the slide deck because, well, it must have been 15 plus years ago. I did read the all 86 pages of the delay and disruption protocol. I found it extremely useful, and I remember working with a contractor at the time to consolidate it into two or three sides of principles that we would follow. So if we think we have a genuine concurrency of delay, what should we do? And what's it like? If we've got something that happened in the past, how do we approach it? And the reason I put it in and stressed the just to reiterate what you've said, Glenn, is I couldn't see anything in that protocol that talks about NEC, and I can't see anything in NEC that talks about the protocol. But these these two things do exist. And uh certainly I've had personal experience of success bringing the two worlds together, nonetheless following the contract. And yeah, it it it's uh something we'd just put a couple of slides in in a moment so we can have a look at some of those techniques. And there are other techniques out there, and and I'm sure the schedulers among you have got have got various approaches, but just a couple of uh solutions offered. Glenn.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Okay, so just very briefly, let's imagine a top program. If you look at the black lines, that's the baseline, and we're gonna have a delay to refurb building, which is a recognized compensation event. Okay. So summarising the last slide, what we're gonna do is we're gonna take the last accepted program, which in this one was a week sixth, we're now week eight two weeks further on. The first thing we need to do is progress the program. So we update it with progress since the last accepted program up until the dividing date. So you're not taking into account this new CE yet. You're just seeing last accepted, we were on schedule. Last accepted plus two weeks progress, we see where we are. And in this particular example, we're gonna see that the refer building is running a week late. For whatever reason, it's running a week late, and we've now started a week late. We're achieving the app we were expected, so we're now planning to finish it with a black line under the refer building. There was two weeks' float on the last accepted program, but before the C's come along, we've already used as the contract to one week of that. So we need to record that first and then re-baseline the program, and we can save a copy. We've we've not done that on this slide, but basically the second picture, the black dotted, the solid black line would now be the rebaseline of refer building as the interim step. And now there's only one week float left on the end of refer building. So if we now add in a valid two-week compensation event, it moves the planned completion of the red diamond out beyond the completion date, which is the black diamond by a week. That then means that we can claim a week's worth of premium cost within that C quotation, and the completion date should move by a week once it's implemented. So you're doing that three-step process. You progress since the last accepted program and then reschedule the program, save a copy, then you feed in the compensation event, reschedule for a second time, and then see any impact on plan completion. And it's this that you would need to convey within your compensation event quotation. Now that's quite a lot to go through in a brief webinar, but that's the principle showing that if we ignore progress, so if we ignored the progress on that refer building and just put a two-week CE in, then it wouldn't have had an impact on plan completion and the contractor would have lost out on true entitlement. So NEC had to set the rules. Whichever the rules were, I didn't mind. I just wanted them to set the rules so we know where we are. So this is the sequence. We're gonna we're gonna progress the last accepted program up until the dividing date, reschedule it and see what the true picture is. Then we can add in the compensation event and see the further impact that has, and that will be the entitlement. Yeah, I think how clear that is bed in uh in just one slide.

Common Pitfalls And How To Avoid Them

SPEAKER_02 40:25

No, really clear, I think. But remember, this is recorded, so it's well worth watching this a couple of times and uh yeah, you know, let that sink in. And and as Glenn said, I think the only thing I'd add, Glenn, is if we hadn't have progressed the program in step one, then it would appear that at the end of that baseline refer building, you see where the black underscore finishes, there would be sufficient time to do all of the compensation event work. So if we hadn't have done that first step, the client would have just burnt up the internal program float, or the Slack, if you like. And therefore there wouldn't have been any any extra extra time awarded. So that that step of of uh progressing the program for known known delays uh or progress. And in this case, it looks like for whatever reason, maybe the equipment broke down, maybe the contractor was was uh people were late turning up, whatever. In this case, it was burning up internal slack. And I think that's the that that's you know uh what this demonstrates here, the importance of progressing the program.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

And even worse, if the if the client believes no, that two-week gap has just been burnt up and the capile show should move, they're now liable for weeks worth of delay damages for starting something a week late when actually they were allowed to.

Q&A: Old Programmes, Acceptance, Sequencing

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Yeah, yeah, they haven't got much filled to go. Yeah, they're in delay damages as well. So yeah. And again, it's the importance of keeping records and also having regular program submission and acceptances so that this detail doesn't get lost. And don't forget, it's progressing the accepted program current at the dividing date. So the the older that program is relative to your dividing date, the more hypothetical it's gonna be, and the more work you've got to do to bring it up to progress it with with known progress. So much, much better if you can have a higher frequency of program submission and acceptance, you're gonna be there's gonna be less work to do for each compensation event. So lean into getting the program accepted regularly. If you're timid about it, you're just creating more work for compensation events. Okay, couple of slides then. Trying the idea of not putting these in, but I think it's helpful. So again, these methodologies are taken from that uh should reference here the the Society of Construction Law Delay and Disruption Protocol, available from their website there. I I think it's a brilliant document. I can say I've I've I've looked at it for uh many years, so go and check it out. And the the progressing the program for events already known about that, those two bullets, if you like, and and for acknowledging that part compensation event, perhaps in the case of a weather event that's already happened, how do we do that? Well, it's perhaps really nice to start with a statement of fact to sort of anchor us into that reality. And I really like this methodology. I think they call it a collapsed as built or kind of butt for assessment. So, but for the compensation event, what would our program have looked like? And again, NEC don't mention that you should do this. So again, there's that little bit of caution there, but it seems to me to fit and follow those rules fairly well, but you'd have to make your own opinion. So essentially all we do is we take that program, and this is why it's not the submission of a whole new program, because that wouldn't give us the change. We really want to see the alterations to the program. So what's happened as a result of the compensation event? Well, to do that, we kind of have to show it with the event and without the event. So here we've got the example of the first little program sort of subnet or little extract from the program, showing those aspects of the program with the compensation event effect in them. And then the same extract underneath, but with collapsed, with that as-built position collapsed as far as it would go, acknowledging any constraints or other things that would stop it fully collapsing, and it and thereby demonstrating that impact on planned completion, which links us back to 63.5. So again, you have to make your own determinations whether or not this is fitting the bill. Personally, I think it's very close and I think it's a pragmatic way of looking at how to model things uh that have already happened. And then similarly, I think much more widely sort of sort of uh understood and adopted is when the dividing date there, the the vertical dashed line on the left, when the dividing date is behind us, so the effects of the compensation is being assessed prospectively. You can see that on the second, third, and fourth activity we've got these uh planned impacts, and we are modelling that on the accepted program, uh, which is the top one. And we've got the the bottom window is the accepted program including these elements uh to demonstrate that impact on plan completion. And so this for me would kind of be the alterations, demonstrating the alterations to the accepted program in the quotations. So this is the kind of backup that you'd need to put in to demonstrate. It doesn't have to be a Gantt chart, Glenn. I think you used to use PowerPoint slides, didn't you, with sort of animated animated build-ups. Um you might be able to explain it just in pure narrative. But I think a picture paints a thousand words, doesn't it? And and and says something like this. What's your experience been, Glenn?

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Yeah, well, I'd always do mine in in the program as a as an ex-planner. But yeah, there might be some times where just an abstract, just to get across a picture or whatever, a bit of you know, sequencing or time charts or whatever. But so there's a few ways, maybe graphically, but at the end of the day, we've got to relate it back to the accepted program because that's what the clients had and that's what you need to demonstrate to get sort of true true entitlement. It's just struck me actually. I don't know if we've said it yet, so let's say it now. The most important thing about the compensation process is where plan completion has moved due to those CEs. Initially, you can only move plan completion. You can't move completion date. So it's only when the CE becomes implemented that you can then move completion date by the agreed amount. So planned completion will be instant moving whilst the CE's being agreed and gone through. So at the moment, you'd have planned completion on the bottom chart, but the completion date on the top chart, and there's a very close gap, and it's only when the CE becomes implemented that then completion date can move by the agreed amount, and the gap that existed before should be the same gap that exists afterwards. But the longer it takes to get that CE agreed, then the the gap seems to have closed up, and you you neither party is quite fully aware of their true entitlement.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Absolutely. And this is why these are alterations to the programme. So again, 62.2. What do I have to put in a quote? It says quotations for compensation events comprise proposed changes to prices and any delay to the completion date and key dates assessed by the contractor. So we're proposing those changes at the moment. And the reason for those little little dashes there is it's it's saying I'm proposing to change the completion date by this amount, and that the little dashes on the amount corresponds to the little dashes on the amount the planned completion is moved by. What we're not doing is submitting a revised program with our quotation with a with a completion date already moved, because that only happens following implementation or at implementation, and that can only happen once your quote's accepted or a project manager does their own assessment. Okay, good stuff. We're pretty much, we probably need to move on a little bit, Glenn. We've got uh some time for questions as well. So if we just run through these common problems and how to avoid them briefly, I wish we had more time really. The accepted program. If you've got an old accepted program, I think we covered this one, then you've got a poor starting point and you've got more work to do in the compensation event analysis. Much better to have that frequency of programs that submission acceptance uh as rapid as possible. Time risk allowance not shown on the accepted program. Many people leave this off, so they the floats in there, but but they're not showing their allowance of time risk allowance. And and it's really important you you show that because that cannot be used to mitigate the effects of compensation events. I think, Glenn, that you you showed me the best way to do this, it's just an extra column in the program showing you what element of time of the duration is risk allowance. So if you've got a six durate six-day duration task with one-day time risk allowance identified in a column next to it, then that's probably the most sensible way to show on a program and very important to show as well. Third one for me, principal principal items of resources not included. This is a really challenging problem. If you're not showing how many piling rigs or or long arm excavators you've got on a certain task, it can be really problematic, particularly with price as well as time, when it comes to, you know, maybe asking for a second rig or an extra resource. Showing those principal items of equipment and your assumptions to their work histogram is super important, I think. Glenn, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yep, so they're there are three important ones. On the right hand side, we've got another three important ones. So float not shown on the accepted programme. So it is an obligation to show floats. And if you if you don't show an item's critical or near to critical, then if you have shown that, it should be no surprise next month if there's a C that impacts what had very little float, it won't be a surprise to them that why now it's gone critical and you're you're claiming time. So making float clear is then just making the answer easier when you're assessing the conversation event. It's an obligation to show it. And if you're not showing it, that's a reason for not accepting the programme. Plan dates for meeting conditions missing. So again, if you haven't got these dates, then it's difficult to show. Well, if you haven't got your planned key date, how are you going to demonstrate what the key date should move by? So it's really important. We have planned dates for every key date, every sexual completion, and the overall completion date to maintain that gap, otherwise known as terminal floats, uh, more commonly. And no alignment on methodology. So they are really important that you're making it clear on what the program's showing and the high-level elements and why you plan to do something a certain way. And then again, when things change, it's more easier to substantiate and justify why you are claiming what you're claiming as a as a contractor or as a subcontractor. So some really important points there that can lead to problems if we're not addressing them.

Resources And What’s Next On Prices

SPEAKER_02 51:05

Absolutely. And I think just to underpin all of those, whether it's getting the program submitted and accepted regularly and being able to justify the the quotation that we're putting together, keeping regular records of what's happened is is really important. And they can also be used prospectively as well when we are putting together productivity assumptions for forecasting and and uh building in that time risk allowance as well. So I think you know, having those conversations oh, we've got one long arm excavator to to to dredge a canal or whatever it might be, you've you we've instructed some additional works. How we how do we deal with the time element of that? Uh, very useful to be able to bring some contemporary records in. If we can have them, then it makes a lot of sense to capture them and use them. Okay, we've got a couple of questions and a statement. So, Will, if you wanted to line up the first question for us, and uh just whilst that's loading up, I just want to make the point actually. Will before we can we just jump back to the media, just to make the point, some we covered a few useful resources through the course of today. So I just wanted to point you in the direction of those. So we've got the obviously the NEC4EC contract, and and and those, it's important to get the latest one with those with those amendments in. We've then got the uh the user guide volume for managing an ECC, gives you a commentary of of how to interpret that clause. There's also the practice note 1.1 uh assessing delays due to compensation rates. So these are all NEC contracts materials. And then that society construction or uh delay and disruption protocol as well. So um, hopefully those references are useful. Um pick your way through them and and sort of make your own uh make your own approach. Glenn, other useful resources? I think your your website is with that.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Hopefully, there's a couple on there. So uh yeah, I mean the the Seeker bulletins are on the Seeker website, they're on the GMH planning website, and any articles that have gone into the NEC UserGoop newsletter, for example. We just had one published last week on Z clauses as well. So there's a whole array on our GMH planning website. There's guidance notes, there's articles, there's frequently asked questions. So yeah, we're trying to help people to help themselves, as well as obviously training, but we do a lot of free advice and yeah, the LinkedIn group as well. You can ask your own questions in our LinkedIn group, the NEC people LinkedIn group as well. So a whole wealth of other things out there for users.

Closing Thoughts And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_02 53:41

And do follow us both on LinkedIn. There's uh there's uh lots of musings and and uh and ideas on there uh as well. And I'll just to maximize time for questions, I'll just deal with the net this second part where we're gonna look at how to assess price uh impact on prices. Glenn, I don't know about you, but I I find that a really fairly large percentage of delegates that I train, regardless of how many years of NEC experience they have, fundamentally miss the concept of how to assess price correctly. And I'll put my hand up and say I got it wrong for five years in my early early NEC career. This this idea that you know sometimes we can conflate the the prices in the activity schedule, for example, or or uh as as being part of the calculation. And really, this this episode is crucial to get that clarity. So I hope you'll join us on the 1st of December on Monday at 4.30, where we look at the second part of assessing compensation, and we'll delve into the concept of how to approach them. And yeah, it's it should be quite a good session, I will go.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Okay, I think that leaves us to questions then. So, first question, thanks for the first question there. What happens if there is an out-accepted program? What would you use as a starting point, Gentry? Glad okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Well, the first thing we do is we give up and we go down the pub and we drown our sorrow because hopefully that's a hypothetical situation rather than a real situation. But unfortunately, you know, this isn't the first time we've we might have heard this. I mean, there has to be, there has to be an accepted program to start with. And if you haven't got one, well you've got to find a way of showing what the accepted program would have been on day one, and then trying to demonstrate the impact, and we're in a whole lot of mess, and we might as well use the JCT or a FIDIC contract to get in there.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Claim, can we be bold enough to say, make sure you put one in? Because it's not always required, is it? So contract data, um, if the if the invitation to tender doesn't require you to submit a program with your contract data, then you don't have to put one in. But I mean, I can't think of a better way to assess the tender for a quality point of view as that rich document as to how we're going to do it. If you haven't got an accepted program or if you haven't got a first program uh showing information a contract requires, the project manager is obliged to retain 25% of the amount due. Is that clause 50.3, something like that? So that's a really big cash flow implication. Yeah. Uh and and you know, if you if there is no program, the project manager to make their own assessment, which is not an easy thing to do. So in all counts, make sure you've got a program in that. Yeah. I think I think we both agree that wheels fall off. It is such a crucial tool. You call it the beating heart, that you plan.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Yeah, and we want our Sega bulletin started this year, number 49, was why it's so important you do submit a program, even if they don't ask for one. Um, it's optional. And if you do include one in data part two, it becomes the first accepted program. So the first thing is don't let that happen. But if you are in that position, well, you've got to try and walk through that treacle to try and mutually agree what would have been the original baseline and then try and then assess beyond that what these C's would be. But you're in a mess.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

The other top thing with this is in the scope, you should be including a format that you want to see the program in. So if you've already done that pre-contract, you can inform that that document and explore it pre-contract, which is even got more advantages there because it takes that uncertainty out of is it going to be acceptable just in terms of its format and layout and presentation? So really important. Thanks for the question. Got a second question. Is it correct for the project manager to require the contractor to submit the progressed program for acceptance before using it for a CE evaluation?

SPEAKER_00 57:41

So I I'd say nope. So you don't need to submit it for acceptance because even if you did, they've got then two weeks to respond. In the meantime, is it accepted not? What do we do? So we said already in that slide I showed you earlier, it probably will be beneficial as part of the C quotation to show that two-step. So you can show a mini program showing last accepted plus progress, and then a second program showing progress now with the compensation in to show you how you got to your overall answer. But it's not, it's actually mandatory requirements to submit the program to enter in step. And anyway, if you have three or four C's within the period, you'd be in a right mess because hang on, we've got four programs to pick the issue now. So no, but you need to convey the picture within the C quote. Because look, you've got to be convincing as a contractor. A client isn't going to want to pay you extra money if they don't have to. So you've got to go the extra yard to demonstrate why it's true bona fide entitlement, and that will probably be too many programs to illustrate that point within that quote.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

What I would say is absolutely agree with a small A. There's no such there's no such process in the contract, but but work together on progressing the program, work together on acknowledging events, effects to date, work together on putting that impact in there so that when you submit a quote, it's a formality to get it accepted. Because if you do these things in isolation, you know, you're very unlikely to get it right first time, and then we just burn resources. So work together on them, beat the timescales if you can. What do we define as events as per part two? Could it be other unimplemented CEs? So we're talking specifically about compensation events, but you're you're right. In terms of progressing the program in that first step that Glenn was talking about there, we are acknowledging all progress or delay. So it could be that we had some equipment failure, it could be the that the weather was bad, but not bad enough to trigger a one in ten. It might be we had an act, it might be we were just late getting to site for one reason or another. So it's really to bring the program up to a point where it reflects the Reality. And Glenn, I think that's that's probably what the question's dealing with there. And and absolutely absolutely it's it could be anything. However, probably not other compensation events, because we've got to do them in some form of sequence. And I think, Glenn, your approach will be to model one, re-baseline, and then go back around the loop to do the next one. So as long as you do them in sequence. And if you can, within a batch, do the big one first, because then you'll probably have less time assessment to do. You have to be careful though that we're not jumping accepted programs. Remember, we're modeling on the accepted program current at the dividing date. And that's quite an important point.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Yeah, so I think that was quite nicely. So it would be progress and any other compensations that came along before the dividing date. So bearing in mind you should have already assessed those ones first. Then you take into account progress and other compensation events that did come along before this new dividing date for this new CE. I'm going to add another controversial one, which is probably the wrong thing to do at 5.33 on a webinar. But the other controversial one is incorrect logic.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

I actually think NEC went further than the jump they would. And I think it's right, probably. So incorrect logic could be also classified as the event. However, contractors don't now think our brilliant Glenn and Ben said we can change our logic, make it critical, and then plug in the C it chose entitlement. You will have to demonstrate that to the nth degree why you've changed that logic, but that is not a free reign or a new regalout how you can get extra entitlement. So I would summarize events to say progress and other compensation events that came along before the dividing dates, and in brackets, in small letters, major incorrect logic that's been identified within that period. But don't get too carried away with that is my advice.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

Don't forget clause 63.9 as well, just to build on exactly what Glenn's just said. The assessment of a compensation event is based upon assumptions the contractor acts constantly and promptly to the event, and that any defined cost and time due to the event are reasonably incurred. So you've still got to be reasonable in your planning and be mitigating where you can be. Crikey, for two people who are bestowing the benefits of program, we've not done well, Glenn. We have four minutes over, so we better draw it to a halt there.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

We can't let Mark go. So we've taken the time. So often the sticking point is bringing the acceptor program up to the dividing day. We would call this the competition in baseline, which is a new program that the PM has not seen before, and the non-agreement by the PM of this program, in most cases, stalls the agreement at CE process arguably attached to the PM users to gain more hindsight. Well, actually, they well, they the hindsight, we already said Mark doesn't count. So it contractually doesn't make any difference, and they can't use more hindsight because they can't use hindsight at all. But in the real world, obviously, I know that they try to, and unless you end up in dispute, formal dispute protest, you won't necessarily get the true contractual answer. And sometimes you need to be brave and say, well, we are going to go to dispute protest because we think you are entitled. So that might be a reality, uh, Mark, but yeah, you've got to try and convince them that that progress up until the diving day is true, real, and at the end of the day, if you're adamant it is and may assess it differently, well then dispute process is your next um your next road to go down.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Um Mark, though, I think you've hit on something in the it's the first time the PA PM's seen that kind of progressed baseline program. And and I think it's similar to the question before around should we get that accepted before modelling the CE? We shouldn't get it accepted because of course that becomes an accepted program, and then it's irrelevant because it's actually the one before it, which which the dividing date speaks to. But there is nothing start. I think I said before, there's nothing preventing us from having a conversation out you know, informally and and having an agreement with a small A that working together on progressing the quotation and the assessment that sits with it. And so it shouldn't, I would I these kind of shocks and surprises, first time we've seen something. Anything that we can do practically that is still in keeping with the contract, that doesn't go against what the contract's saying, but that that brings us closer to cooperating on getting to the right answer first time around, I think it's got to be got to be a good idea. So hopefully it's not the first time that we can see it. Hopefully we can bring it out in a conversational workshop perhaps and hold them on a regular basis, make it part of your your cadence, your rhythm of business to be having these conversational workshops. Personally, I'd plan backwards from getting submission and acceptance as a formalization on the same day. If you think backwards from that point, what do we need to do to get that to happen? I think that's very healthy. Okay, thank you all. Sorry we overrun. It is recorded, so if you've had to go and watch this bit later on, then uh then hopefully it's been of use and interesting. David, did you want to say a few closing words? Yes, I I do really, because I when we started, we said it was going to be quite an interesting session. Well, I was looking forward to it as being an interesting session, and it's proved to be that. And what it does highlight though is it is quite a complex progress process because you have so many events that can happen, cascade as it were. So there's always going to be complication. And I think the points you're trying to allude to is that we need to have the right behaviours about the process to actually make it work. You talked about an agreement with a small A. It's getting on board at an early stage to actually agree something's changed, there will be circumstances arising out of that change, and how do we actually use the contact in the right way to move it forward? Because the last thing anybody wants is some huge blockage along the path somewhere that actually then causes a whole series of other issues and behaviours around the site, and that doesn't actually help anyone. So no, with quite a few additional questions in the chat, and I think that they all have merit, and at some point it'd be good to um get some answers back on those. But yeah, thank you. That was uh worthwhile doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

Thank you, David. Uh Glenn, anything further?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

No, I think uh yeah, it's good time flies, doesn't it? So a lot of content we've covered there. The next one's just sorting out the costs. So I'm guessing the next one will just be a five-minute webinar, won't it? Because that's the easy bit. Or maybe that would be too advers, but we'll if everyone agrees with us, Glenn.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Well, yeah, look forward to the next one. So I hope you can join us and yeah, we'll see you in the next one. Thank you very much, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Thanks, Ben. Thanks, David.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:44

Thanks, Glenn. Thanks, David.